The following is an interview I conducted with Saad Hariri in 2006,
before the Israeli war in Lebanon. But it was never published. The
interview had been assigned to me by O Estado de S.Paulo, one of
the oldest and most respected newspapers in Brazil, a news outlet where I
once was the only student to write on the op-ed page and where I also
had a political column. But as it often happens in the Brazilian
coverage of the Middle East, during the editing process all my questions
related to Israel (and only the ones related to Israel) were
cut. Even though I was offered a good amount of money for the interview,
I refused to have it published, and told O Estado de S.Paulo to
stuff it. (On a more pleasant note, the editor got in touch with me when
he came to Beirut and we made peace during the war. Under the bombs, we
felt the moment was oddly appropriate.) It’s worth mentioning that O Estado
is far from being the worst when it comes to publishing anything
detrimental to Israel. Something even more sinister happened between me
and Folha de S.Paulo, the best-selling Brazilian newspaper where,
despite having once worked there and authored a political column, I
found myself the victim of the most shameless pro-Zionist editing – a
story I’ll tell once my mood is foul enough for me to reach for that
ten-foot pole.
Here is the interview.
At only 36, Saad Rafiq Hariri is one of the richest men in the world –
and now a somewhat compulsory political leader. Succeeding his father,
Rafiq Hariri, the five-time Lebanese prime minister who was murdered
in February 2005, Saad Hariri woke up one day as the heir not only to
one of the world's biggest fortunes, but to a political legacy – with
all the credits and debts that his father left. Unprepared for the
public life – he admits that himself – Saad Hariri had to relinquish
an empire of companies in which he made the final decisions and
multiplied a fortune estimated in 8 billion dollars. Now, he has been
living a life that few can envy. Surrounded by bodyguards and a
security detail gigantic even for Lebanese standards, he lives under
permanent threat. And the risk extends to his closest aids – one of
whom has not left the palace since August, when he received a warning
that sounded reliable enough. Three weeks ago, mortars were found
close to Hariri's mansion (which, like others in Beirut, is a
monumental palace surrounded by destroyed houses and unfinished
buildings).
Three months after the death of his father, in an election round that
had a surprisingly meagre turnout of 28%, Hariri was elected to
parliament and became the leader of the largest parliamentary group,
welded together by their purported aversion to Syria's power over
Lebanon. Vested with that sudden significance, Hariri often looks out
of place. Despite carrying a masbaha, the traditional rosary often carried by elderly men,
Hariri is himself surrounded by men old enough to be his father or grandfather,
who continuously come in and out of his private quarters.
Yet despite the lack of privacy, he seems unaffected. At the lunch to which this reporter
was invited, as the interview took three times longer than previously agreed, Hariri
ignored all ceremony: he would call everyone to the table
and deal with politics right there, while bodyguards, assistants
and other small-rank employees would be watching TV in the same room,
as if they owned the house as much as Hariri himself. Introducing some
waiters by their name, he would insist that I tried the most varied
dishes of the Lebanese cuisine, cooked by the local chef. But,
somewhat belying the imaginary extra years suggested by the masbaha,
Hariri chose a hamburger with fries and ketchup. Throughout the
interview, when not fiddling with the rosary, Hariri would be holding
the tape recorder. His legs, incessantly fidgeting, were not
a sign of nervousness, he said – that was out of frustration for not
being able to do as much as he says he would like to.
DO YOU CONSIDER AT ALL, EVEN SLIGHTLY, THE POSSIBILITY THAT YOUR FATHER'S MURDER, AND THE OTHER ASSASSINATIONS, COULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY SOMEONE ELSE OTHER THAN SYRIA? WOULDN'T SYRIA BE SHOOTING ITSELF IN THE FOOT [with your father’s assassination]?
I don't think so. If you look at the people who have been killed, they
are from the same line of politics, and the same idea of politics. I
believe that these crimes served a purpose, you know, killing Rafiq
Hariri, Gebran Tueni, Samir Kassir, Bassil Fleihan and George Hawy,
they served one same goal. When they killed Rafiq Hariri they killed
one of – the biggest politician in Lebanon. But killing all the
others was like killing the people who make the public opinion. Gebran
Tueni was such an outspoken person, George Hawi, Samir Kassir,
everybody read what these guys wrote, and May Chidiac used to be on
television every day, she used to be listened to. What they tried to
do was to send a clear message to journalists, to freedom of speech,
that 'this is not something that we will accept', but the Lebanese
didn't understand it and will keep on talking.
ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS THERE WILL BE PEOPLE INDICTED? I SUPPOSE YOU ARE WELL BRIEFED ABOUT THE UN REPORT.
No, I am not, actually I am the worst briefed, I don't get involved, I
don't talk to them, and they don't talk to me.
SO YOU DON'T FEEL THAT YOU SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO SOME DIRECT INFORMATION?
I feel that I should be entitled and that I should know things, but I
have full confidence in them so I am not worried about the results or
what they are doing. I feel this is a team that is professional and
they would do everything possible at their hand, and they will try to
expose the criminals who killed Rafiq Hariri and the others.
COULD THE LOSS OF YOUR FATHER IN SUCH A TRAGIC MANNER MAKE YOU INTO A BITTER PERSON?
No, I can never be bitter, I cannot hate. What I want is only justice,
and the reason why I want it is because if you don't have justice then
you will have the law of the jungle to rule with, and this is the
problem that we have been suffering in Lebanon for the past 30 years.
SPEAKING OF WHICH, DO YOU THINK YOUR FATHER WAS ALWAYS TRYING TO PRESERVE THE RULE OF LAW, OR DID HE SOMETIMES BEND IT TO ACCOMMODATE PRIVATE INTERESTS AND THE SUPPOSED CONFESSIONAL BALANCE?
I think his end goal was the rule of law. And you have to understand
that Lebanon came out of a civil war that lasted for 17 years, and in
order to take a country from a civil war to a better world there is a
transition period, and this transition is not a year or two or three,
some countries took 5 years, 10 years, 15 years. But his end goal was
to take Lebanon to a place where the rule of law is the way to rule. I
think he believed that Lebanon should be the centre of the Arab world
in freedom and the rule of law even. And you can't build the country
or get to a point of economic success if you don't have rule of law.
And this is all he wanted all the time.
DOES THAT INCLUDE IMPLEMENTING THE TAIF [the agreement that ended the war and established, among other things, the end of the armed militias, the end of the Syrian occupation and the adoption of a secular government]?
Of course. The Taif has been there for so many years and we were not
supposed to sit as Lebanese, as one people and talk to each other and
resolve our problems together, like this national dialogue – people are
used to political instability and political differences, it is the
first time in the history of Lebanon that people sit together and talk
honestly, and about the problems that we never even thought we could
open to each other. And if we get used to it, we can do a lot and we can
get a lot achieved.
ARE YOU TAKING IT TO THE ARAB SUMMIT?
Yes, because there are some issues that… we got the consensus that the
borders must be delimitated and demarked. If you take the relationship
with Syria, this is something we all came with a consensus and said
'yes, we want good relationship with Syria and we want embassies',
something that we all decided as Lebanese. Now it needs to go to a
third place where the relationship between the two countries need to be
bettered and I think we need an intermediate to help us as Lebanese.
MEDIATORS?
Yes, mediators.
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT SYRIA'S OCCUPATION AND YET, CONDOLEEZZA RICE COMES HERE, IN A MOST CONDESCENDING MANNER, TO LITERALLY THANK LEBANON FOR ITS DEMOCRATIC EFFORTS, AS IF LEBANON OWED THE U.S. GOOD BEHAVIOUR. ARE YOU TRANSFERRING THE SYRIAN INFLUENCE TO THE U.S.?
No, you see, I think that there are some people who try to portray
that the U.S. or other countries are trying to replace the Syrian
influence to another influence and I think the problem is that the
western influence, or what the West is trying to do in Lebanon, if you
look at it, what have they tried to do? Did they tell us 'go and fight
Hezbollah, go and fight Syria’? No, they said they are looking for
stability, they are looking to have the best for our economy, they are
looking to have the best for our security. What they have done is
served us actually, and they have helped us in ways that enabled us to
get our Lebanon back. This is Lebanon, Lebanon is for the Lebanese.
And no Lebanese wants any influence on Lebanon and the decisions we
make.
WHAT ABOUT 1559 [the UN resolution that determines, among other things, the disarming of Hezbollah] AND THE WEAPONS OF HEZBOLLAH?
This resolution was made because of Emile Lahoud, and Emile Lahoud was voted in the parliament by pure pressure.
YOUR FATHER VOTED FOR HIM.
He voted for him because he had the best interest of Lebanon, it was
either vote for Emile Lahoud's extension or have Lebanon destroyed.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, TO HAVE "LEBANON DESTROYED"? WHAT IF RAFIQ HARIRI HAD JUST TAKEN A STAND AND SAID "IT IS WRONG TO EXTEND THE MANDATE, AND I JUST WON'T VOTE FOR IT"? DO YOU THINK HE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED THEN?
He would have been killed and we’d have seen explosions in Solidere [the
downtown area rebuilt by the company founded by Rafiq Hariri] and
other places.
ON 1559, WHERE DO YOU STAND?
When you are a part of the United Nations, you must accept a
resolution as it is. You cannot accept just parts of a resolution. For
instance, the 425 is a resolution that was made for Lebanon, when
Israel occupied Lebanon in 1978 asking it to withdraw. So if you want
to be a part of the United Nations , and we want to be a part of the
club of nations in the world, then we have to accept any resolution
that comes out.
BUT HAVEN'T YOU SEEN ENOUGH EXAMPLES OF COUNTRIES THAT DO NOT COMPLY AT ALL WITH THE UN AND CONTINUE TO PARTAKE OF THIS ‘CLUB OF NATIONS’? INDIA HAS JUST SIGNED A NUCLEAR DEAL WITH AMERICA EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER SUBSCRIBED TO THE NUCLEAR NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY. ISRAEL KEEPS IGNORING RESOLUTIONS AND THEY CONTINUE TO BE THE BIGGEST FOREIGN RECIPIENTS OF AMERICAN AID.
We are a small nation, and they are big nations. You talk about India,
you have 1.1 billion people living there, and they have a thriving
economy. Lebanon is a small country. We have to accept these
resolutions. For instance, now on Lebanon we have had 1595, 1636,
1644. These resolutions were for the benefit of Lebanon. Look at what
they brought us: they brought us to the investigation of Rafiq Hariri
killing; they led to full cooperation from Syria to the investigative
team; and 1644 allowed us to work on the issue of an international
tribunal. So these are three resolutions that were for the benefit of
Lebanon. And Lebanon has systematically demanded that Israel complies
with all the UN resolutions.
WHICH HASN'T MADE ANY DIFFERENCE, HAS IT?
Listen, listen, in politics, I believe, one day these resolutions will
become a necessity to Israel to implement. Nothing stays the same. In
history, nations that were extremely strong became weak, and nations
that were weak became strong. And we would lose our moral ground if we
don't comply with the resolution while demanding that Israel complies
with theirs.
DO YOU CONTEMPLATE THE POSSIBILITY THAT HEZBOLLAH WILL ONE DAY WAKE UP WITHOUT ITS WEAPONS?
This is something that is interesting to me, because I believe that
Hezbollah is not in the hobby of killing. Hezbollah is a party that
presented a lot of martyrs to free the occupied lands of Lebanon. And
it was not only Hezbollah – the resistance started in 1978, when
Hezbollah didn't exist. So we have a long history of resistance. I
think our main problem is not Hezbollah but the occupation by Israel
and what it is doing to Lebanon. We believe that eventually, and
Hezbollah believes it too, that one day we will be able to free all
our lands and we will be able to live in a peaceful way. What we need
to do is to find a way to protect Lebanon if things like this happen
again. And this is the main question mark we have at the National
Dialogue when we sit and talk [National Dialogue is a series of
debates among different religious groups gathered to decide on crucial
issues like Hezbollah's weapons, the Shebaa Farms and the Palestinian refugees].
How do we protect Lebanon from the Israeli occupation and atrocities committed
against our country? I believe that Hezbollah is a party that has done a lot for Lebanon and
it can do still a lot, and the more and more Hezbollah is getting into
politics, the more it will understand the Lebanese way of ruling
Lebanon.
WHAT ABOUT THE WEAPONS?
The weapons will be resolved. I don't believe that Hezbollah is in the
habit of carrying weapons left, right and centre. They believe in
Lebanon, they believe in the nation of Lebanon and that Lebanon has to
rule itself.
OK, BUT THE SHEBAA FARMS. LET US SUPPOSE THEY ARE SYRIAN.
But they are Syrian now, under the international law today the Shebaa Farms
are Syrian.
SO, IF THE SHEBAA FARMS ARE NOT LEBANESE, THEN TECHNICALLY LEBANON IS NOT OCCUPIED, RIGHT?
Technically, but in reality you have to understand these lands are
Lebanese. And we are not saying they are Lebanese because we want to
extend our war with Israel, but in reality these lands are owned by
Lebanese people, registered in Lebanon, not in Syria. So we have the
legal right over these lands. The problem is that, because Lebanon is
small, in the past it didn't raise its voice to say 'Israel is
occupying these lands'. In the past, even if we had talked, nobody
would have listened.
IF LEBANON IS STILL BEING OCCUPIED BY ISRAEL, IF SHEBAA ARE FINALLY RECOGNISED AS LEBANESE, WOULD YOU FIND IT LEGITIMATE, IN THAT CASE, THAT HEZBOLLAH CONTINUES TO HAVE WEAPONS?
In the UN charter any land that is occupied has the right to resist.
What we are doing is perfectly legal, it is perfectly legal.
WHY WERE YOU CHOSEN TO SUCCEED YOUR FATHER, INSTEAD OF BAHAA, THE ELDEST SON?
Why? We agreed, together, the family, that they would give me this
nice job, that I sit here at the risk that people will kill me.
WHY YOU?
Because the family sat together and decided who was going to do what.
DO YOU THINK YOU WERE THE MOST PREPARED?
None of us were prepared.
AND WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT HEREDITARY POLITICS? WHY DID YOU ACCEPT? YOU MAY EVEN END UP AS PRIME MINISTER.
I don't want to be prime minister.
YOU DON'T? TRULY?
Truly. Because I have a better title.
WHICH IS...?
Saad Rafiq Hariri.
AND WHAT CAN SAAD RAFIQ HARIRI DO FOR LEBANON?
What I am trying to do now. I am trying to give hope to the young guys
in Lebanon, that Lebanon is worth living for, that we could be united,
we could work out our problems with ourselves and give, you know, this
national feeling for Lebanon.
DO YOU THINK YOU ARE IN TOUCH WITH SOCIAL REALITY IN LEBANON? LET'S FORGET THE REGIONAL PROBLEMS FOR A MOMENT AND THE RELIGIOUS ISSUES. WHAT ABOUT THE PRICE OF FOOD, GASOLINE, SALARIES, SOCIAL SECURITY. CAN YOU REALLY GET OUT OF THIS IVORY TOWER AND SYMPATHISE WITH THE PEOPLE AND THEIR DAILY PROBLEMS?
I feel with what is happening and I wish I could do more. Believe me,
it is not an ivory tower, I am living in a prison. I don't go out, I
don't see anyone, I cannot do anything, I just sit here and meet
people day and night, and I try to meet as many people as I can.
ARE YOU LIVING ABROAD?
Abroad?
YES, YOU WERE LIVING IN FRANCE FOR A WHILE.
No, that was a while ago.
ARE YOU STAYING HERE FOR THE MOMENT?
I am staying here for a while.
HOW DO YOU FEEL KNOWING THAT YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER?
Great. It’s exciting.
YOU MEAN IT?
Oh yeah.
ADRENALINE BOOSTING?
Yes, like jumping with a bungee jump – you don't know if the cord is
going to be cut off or not. [[he laughs]]
ARE YOU NEGLECTING YOUR COMPANIES? YOU ARE SAID TO BE A GREAT BUSINESSMAN.
That's what they say.
I WONDER HOW MUCH BETTER YOU ARE A BUSINESSMAN THAN YOU CAN EVER BE A POLITICIAN.
Definitely a better businessman.
DID YOU STOP LOOKING INTO YOUR COMPANIES?
I have my brothers, who are taking care of the business, and we talk a
lot. I am handing over what I was doing.
SO BASICALLY YOU ARE NOT TAKING ANY RESPONSIBILITY AS FAR AS YOUR BUSINESSES GO?
No, I am handing them over.
SO YOU ARE FULL TIME WITH POLITICS NOW?
Not now, but I will be.
NOT AS A PRIME MINISTER, THOUGH.
No.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT EXPATRIATES BEING ENTITLED TO VOTE?
I think that anything that can make people feel proud of being
Lebanese and connect them to Lebanon, should happen. I am with it.
BUT WOULDN'T THAT TILT THE CONFESSIONAL BALANCE?
It doesn't tilt the balance. This is all nonsense. For me there is no
Christian and Muslim, I don't believe it. And people who think like
this are sick.
WHAT ABOUT YOUR BUSINESSES IN BRAZIL?
I don't have a business in Brazil. My only business in Brazil is to
get the Lebanese people in Brazil to feel that they are connected with
Lebanon and I feel that the Lebanese who live in Brazil are very
very lucky people, because actually the Brazilians took them as they
are, and considered them as Brazilians, but I believe that we should
do much more for them as a government and try to connect them with
their country, because at the end of the day, Lebanon is their home,
like Brazil is, and Lebanon is a great country to be in. And one day
when they come here, they will see what Lebanon went through and how
the Lebanese people were able to take the burden from [meaning
to go from] the civil war to a place where all the Arab world and all
the world are coming to.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT LEBANON WILL EVER SIGN A PEACE DEAL WITH ISRAEL, LIKE JORDAN AND EGYPT?
You should ask uh… we believe that the Arab summit that happened in
Beirut had a very good proposal for Israel.
OFFERING THEM THE CHANCE TO SIGN A PEACE TREATY WITH THE ARAB COUNTRIES IF THEY RETURN TO THE 67 BORDERS AND…
And we will be the last one to sign with Israel. We are a small
country and we believe that Arabs should take this initiative, and
they have, and then have Israel sign, do something with the Arabs. We
cannot do it by ourselves.
OK, LET ME SEE IF I GET IT RIGHT: IF ISRAEL GOES BACK TO THE 67 BORDERS AND STOPS OCCUPYING ARAB LAND, WOULD YOU SIGN A PEACE TREATY WITH ISRAEL, YOU WOULD BE WILLING TO...
If the Arabs sign, we sign. But we don't sign if they don't sign.
SO IT HAS TO BE A COLLECTIVE DECISION?
Yes.
THE MOHAMMED CARTOONS. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE ISSUE? WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THE ISSUE OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH?
Hum, tough question. I mean, to be so insensitive about Islam and draw
cartoons about Mohammed, who is the prophet that we in Islam look up
to and think of as our prophet. I think that there is a lot of
insensitivity in the way these cartoons were done. I believe that you
cannot touch people's pride and belief the way they did. It is not
about freedom of speech, it has to do with provocation of a
civilization. And the problem is that if you provoke a religion…
Religion is one of the most extremely sensitive issues with people, and
if you are not sensitive to that, it will raise all the problems we
have seen.
DO YOU THINK THIS SENSITIVITY TOWARDS PEOPLE'S FEELINGS SHOULD BE IMPOSED BY LAW OR SHOULD BE A MATTER OF PERSONAL CHOICE?
I believe that like there are laws for anti-Semitism and all that,
there should be laws to respect religion.
WHAT DO YOU THINK MAKES A STATESMAN?
A statesman?
YES. SOME PEOPLE SAY YOUR FATHER WAS A STATESMAN, I COULD HAVE OBJECTIONS TO THAT, AS I HAVE MY OWN IDEA OF WHAT A STATESMAN IS. WHAT IS YOUR IDEA OF A STATESMAN?
Why do you have objections to that?
I SAID 'I COULD'. YOU ARE THE ONE BEING INTERVIEWED HERE. ONE DAY, MAYBE, I WILL LET YOU KNOW.
Tell me now.
OH I HAVE MANY OBJECTIONS.
[[tape recorder is shut off. I tell him my objections.]]
I think a statesman is somebody people trust, people like. A statesman
takes position that benefits the country, and not for the sake of
politics.
THE 35 BILLION DOLLAR DEBT. HOW DO YOU ANSWER THE ACCUSATION THAT YOUR FATHER WAS THE MAIN PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR DEBT WORTH AROUND 180% OF THE GDP?
When you are coming out of a war and you see the devastation that
Lebanon was living in, and you want to attract people to come to
Lebanon, to bring back Lebanon to where it was, and to turn Lebanon
into the main base for the world to come to, especially after the
country was marked as a haven for terrorists and kidnappers and all of
that… What has been done since 1992 until today, if you look at the
reconstruction and the development of Lebanon, it is being quite
tremendous. At the same time you cannot ignore the fact that you came
out of a war. And coming out of a civil war means that at the
beginning you have an agreement to stop the war and start building the
government. And this is the transition you see. Part of the debt has
been to rebuild Lebanon. About 50% or 60% was to establish the
security forces. And part is to service the debt, and that is the
problem. If you didn't do anything in Lebanon when my father came, the
debt today would be about 25 billion dollars.
WHOSE CALCULATION IS THAT?
Because if you had left the airport the way it was, the roads the way
they were, the infrastructure, the telephone, the electricity, the
water and everything that was done, Lebanon would have had a debt of 2
billion or 3 billion dollars. If you calculate, every five years it
would double. Plus the interest rate, plus you don't have a GDP growth
in the country, you would have a debt of 25 billion dollars.
IS THAT CALCULATION SIGNED BY AN ECONOMIST?
You can ask any economist and they would tell you that if nothing had
been done then that would be the debt today. So you build a country
and now you need to fix it politically. And fixing it politically,
having political stability is what is going to take that debt out.
What we did in Paris 2, my father did in Paris 2 [the donor's
conference that lent money to Lebanon], was to take the debt and bring
it down to where it should be. Unfortunately, we have president Lahoud
who puts every stick in the wheel of the economy. Now we are going to
Beirut 1 to re-establish, to reinvent the economy.
BEIRUT 1 IS THE NAME OF A NEW LOAN?
Beirut 1 is the donor's conference that is going to help Lebanon, like Paris 2.
AND YOU WILL BE HEADING IT?
No, the prime minister will.
AND YOU REALLY DON'T WANT TO BE A PRIME MINISTER?
Definitely. Why should I be?
ARE YOU TIRED ALREADY?
No, I am not tired, I don't think I am ready yet and there are better
people than me to do that.
DO YOU FEEL LIKE, SORT OF, YOU FELL WITH A PARACHUTE IN THIS SITUATION?
I didn't fall with a parachute, I crash-landed.
SO IF YOUR FATHER HAD NOT BEING KILLED, YOU WOULD NOT EVEN DREAM OF ENTERING POLITICS?
Definitely not. I wouldn't be here.
Here is the interview.
At only 36, Saad Rafiq Hariri is one of the richest men in the world –
and now a somewhat compulsory political leader. Succeeding his father,
Rafiq Hariri, the five-time Lebanese prime minister who was murdered
in February 2005, Saad Hariri woke up one day as the heir not only to
one of the world's biggest fortunes, but to a political legacy – with
all the credits and debts that his father left. Unprepared for the
public life – he admits that himself – Saad Hariri had to relinquish
an empire of companies in which he made the final decisions and
multiplied a fortune estimated in 8 billion dollars. Now, he has been
living a life that few can envy. Surrounded by bodyguards and a
security detail gigantic even for Lebanese standards, he lives under
permanent threat. And the risk extends to his closest aids – one of
whom has not left the palace since August, when he received a warning
that sounded reliable enough. Three weeks ago, mortars were found
close to Hariri's mansion (which, like others in Beirut, is a
monumental palace surrounded by destroyed houses and unfinished
buildings).
Three months after the death of his father, in an election round that
had a surprisingly meagre turnout of 28%, Hariri was elected to
parliament and became the leader of the largest parliamentary group,
welded together by their purported aversion to Syria's power over
Lebanon. Vested with that sudden significance, Hariri often looks out
of place. Despite carrying a masbaha, the traditional rosary often carried by elderly men,
Hariri is himself surrounded by men old enough to be his father or grandfather,
who continuously come in and out of his private quarters.
Yet despite the lack of privacy, he seems unaffected. At the lunch to which this reporter
was invited, as the interview took three times longer than previously agreed, Hariri
ignored all ceremony: he would call everyone to the table
and deal with politics right there, while bodyguards, assistants
and other small-rank employees would be watching TV in the same room,
as if they owned the house as much as Hariri himself. Introducing some
waiters by their name, he would insist that I tried the most varied
dishes of the Lebanese cuisine, cooked by the local chef. But,
somewhat belying the imaginary extra years suggested by the masbaha,
Hariri chose a hamburger with fries and ketchup. Throughout the
interview, when not fiddling with the rosary, Hariri would be holding
the tape recorder. His legs, incessantly fidgeting, were not
a sign of nervousness, he said – that was out of frustration for not
being able to do as much as he says he would like to.
DO YOU CONSIDER AT ALL, EVEN SLIGHTLY, THE POSSIBILITY THAT YOUR FATHER'S MURDER, AND THE OTHER ASSASSINATIONS, COULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY SOMEONE ELSE OTHER THAN SYRIA? WOULDN'T SYRIA BE SHOOTING ITSELF IN THE FOOT [with your father’s assassination]?
I don't think so. If you look at the people who have been killed, they
are from the same line of politics, and the same idea of politics. I
believe that these crimes served a purpose, you know, killing Rafiq
Hariri, Gebran Tueni, Samir Kassir, Bassil Fleihan and George Hawy,
they served one same goal. When they killed Rafiq Hariri they killed
one of – the biggest politician in Lebanon. But killing all the
others was like killing the people who make the public opinion. Gebran
Tueni was such an outspoken person, George Hawi, Samir Kassir,
everybody read what these guys wrote, and May Chidiac used to be on
television every day, she used to be listened to. What they tried to
do was to send a clear message to journalists, to freedom of speech,
that 'this is not something that we will accept', but the Lebanese
didn't understand it and will keep on talking.
ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS THERE WILL BE PEOPLE INDICTED? I SUPPOSE YOU ARE WELL BRIEFED ABOUT THE UN REPORT.
No, I am not, actually I am the worst briefed, I don't get involved, I
don't talk to them, and they don't talk to me.
SO YOU DON'T FEEL THAT YOU SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO SOME DIRECT INFORMATION?
I feel that I should be entitled and that I should know things, but I
have full confidence in them so I am not worried about the results or
what they are doing. I feel this is a team that is professional and
they would do everything possible at their hand, and they will try to
expose the criminals who killed Rafiq Hariri and the others.
COULD THE LOSS OF YOUR FATHER IN SUCH A TRAGIC MANNER MAKE YOU INTO A BITTER PERSON?
No, I can never be bitter, I cannot hate. What I want is only justice,
and the reason why I want it is because if you don't have justice then
you will have the law of the jungle to rule with, and this is the
problem that we have been suffering in Lebanon for the past 30 years.
SPEAKING OF WHICH, DO YOU THINK YOUR FATHER WAS ALWAYS TRYING TO PRESERVE THE RULE OF LAW, OR DID HE SOMETIMES BEND IT TO ACCOMMODATE PRIVATE INTERESTS AND THE SUPPOSED CONFESSIONAL BALANCE?
I think his end goal was the rule of law. And you have to understand
that Lebanon came out of a civil war that lasted for 17 years, and in
order to take a country from a civil war to a better world there is a
transition period, and this transition is not a year or two or three,
some countries took 5 years, 10 years, 15 years. But his end goal was
to take Lebanon to a place where the rule of law is the way to rule. I
think he believed that Lebanon should be the centre of the Arab world
in freedom and the rule of law even. And you can't build the country
or get to a point of economic success if you don't have rule of law.
And this is all he wanted all the time.
DOES THAT INCLUDE IMPLEMENTING THE TAIF [the agreement that ended the war and established, among other things, the end of the armed militias, the end of the Syrian occupation and the adoption of a secular government]?
Of course. The Taif has been there for so many years and we were not
supposed to sit as Lebanese, as one people and talk to each other and
resolve our problems together, like this national dialogue – people are
used to political instability and political differences, it is the
first time in the history of Lebanon that people sit together and talk
honestly, and about the problems that we never even thought we could
open to each other. And if we get used to it, we can do a lot and we can
get a lot achieved.
ARE YOU TAKING IT TO THE ARAB SUMMIT?
Yes, because there are some issues that… we got the consensus that the
borders must be delimitated and demarked. If you take the relationship
with Syria, this is something we all came with a consensus and said
'yes, we want good relationship with Syria and we want embassies',
something that we all decided as Lebanese. Now it needs to go to a
third place where the relationship between the two countries need to be
bettered and I think we need an intermediate to help us as Lebanese.
MEDIATORS?
Yes, mediators.
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT SYRIA'S OCCUPATION AND YET, CONDOLEEZZA RICE COMES HERE, IN A MOST CONDESCENDING MANNER, TO LITERALLY THANK LEBANON FOR ITS DEMOCRATIC EFFORTS, AS IF LEBANON OWED THE U.S. GOOD BEHAVIOUR. ARE YOU TRANSFERRING THE SYRIAN INFLUENCE TO THE U.S.?
No, you see, I think that there are some people who try to portray
that the U.S. or other countries are trying to replace the Syrian
influence to another influence and I think the problem is that the
western influence, or what the West is trying to do in Lebanon, if you
look at it, what have they tried to do? Did they tell us 'go and fight
Hezbollah, go and fight Syria’? No, they said they are looking for
stability, they are looking to have the best for our economy, they are
looking to have the best for our security. What they have done is
served us actually, and they have helped us in ways that enabled us to
get our Lebanon back. This is Lebanon, Lebanon is for the Lebanese.
And no Lebanese wants any influence on Lebanon and the decisions we
make.
WHAT ABOUT 1559 [the UN resolution that determines, among other things, the disarming of Hezbollah] AND THE WEAPONS OF HEZBOLLAH?
This resolution was made because of Emile Lahoud, and Emile Lahoud was voted in the parliament by pure pressure.
YOUR FATHER VOTED FOR HIM.
He voted for him because he had the best interest of Lebanon, it was
either vote for Emile Lahoud's extension or have Lebanon destroyed.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, TO HAVE "LEBANON DESTROYED"? WHAT IF RAFIQ HARIRI HAD JUST TAKEN A STAND AND SAID "IT IS WRONG TO EXTEND THE MANDATE, AND I JUST WON'T VOTE FOR IT"? DO YOU THINK HE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED THEN?
He would have been killed and we’d have seen explosions in Solidere [the
downtown area rebuilt by the company founded by Rafiq Hariri] and
other places.
ON 1559, WHERE DO YOU STAND?
When you are a part of the United Nations, you must accept a
resolution as it is. You cannot accept just parts of a resolution. For
instance, the 425 is a resolution that was made for Lebanon, when
Israel occupied Lebanon in 1978 asking it to withdraw. So if you want
to be a part of the United Nations , and we want to be a part of the
club of nations in the world, then we have to accept any resolution
that comes out.
BUT HAVEN'T YOU SEEN ENOUGH EXAMPLES OF COUNTRIES THAT DO NOT COMPLY AT ALL WITH THE UN AND CONTINUE TO PARTAKE OF THIS ‘CLUB OF NATIONS’? INDIA HAS JUST SIGNED A NUCLEAR DEAL WITH AMERICA EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER SUBSCRIBED TO THE NUCLEAR NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY. ISRAEL KEEPS IGNORING RESOLUTIONS AND THEY CONTINUE TO BE THE BIGGEST FOREIGN RECIPIENTS OF AMERICAN AID.
We are a small nation, and they are big nations. You talk about India,
you have 1.1 billion people living there, and they have a thriving
economy. Lebanon is a small country. We have to accept these
resolutions. For instance, now on Lebanon we have had 1595, 1636,
1644. These resolutions were for the benefit of Lebanon. Look at what
they brought us: they brought us to the investigation of Rafiq Hariri
killing; they led to full cooperation from Syria to the investigative
team; and 1644 allowed us to work on the issue of an international
tribunal. So these are three resolutions that were for the benefit of
Lebanon. And Lebanon has systematically demanded that Israel complies
with all the UN resolutions.
WHICH HASN'T MADE ANY DIFFERENCE, HAS IT?
Listen, listen, in politics, I believe, one day these resolutions will
become a necessity to Israel to implement. Nothing stays the same. In
history, nations that were extremely strong became weak, and nations
that were weak became strong. And we would lose our moral ground if we
don't comply with the resolution while demanding that Israel complies
with theirs.
DO YOU CONTEMPLATE THE POSSIBILITY THAT HEZBOLLAH WILL ONE DAY WAKE UP WITHOUT ITS WEAPONS?
This is something that is interesting to me, because I believe that
Hezbollah is not in the hobby of killing. Hezbollah is a party that
presented a lot of martyrs to free the occupied lands of Lebanon. And
it was not only Hezbollah – the resistance started in 1978, when
Hezbollah didn't exist. So we have a long history of resistance. I
think our main problem is not Hezbollah but the occupation by Israel
and what it is doing to Lebanon. We believe that eventually, and
Hezbollah believes it too, that one day we will be able to free all
our lands and we will be able to live in a peaceful way. What we need
to do is to find a way to protect Lebanon if things like this happen
again. And this is the main question mark we have at the National
Dialogue when we sit and talk [National Dialogue is a series of
debates among different religious groups gathered to decide on crucial
issues like Hezbollah's weapons, the Shebaa Farms and the Palestinian refugees].
How do we protect Lebanon from the Israeli occupation and atrocities committed
against our country? I believe that Hezbollah is a party that has done a lot for Lebanon and
it can do still a lot, and the more and more Hezbollah is getting into
politics, the more it will understand the Lebanese way of ruling
Lebanon.
WHAT ABOUT THE WEAPONS?
The weapons will be resolved. I don't believe that Hezbollah is in the
habit of carrying weapons left, right and centre. They believe in
Lebanon, they believe in the nation of Lebanon and that Lebanon has to
rule itself.
OK, BUT THE SHEBAA FARMS. LET US SUPPOSE THEY ARE SYRIAN.
But they are Syrian now, under the international law today the Shebaa Farms
are Syrian.
SO, IF THE SHEBAA FARMS ARE NOT LEBANESE, THEN TECHNICALLY LEBANON IS NOT OCCUPIED, RIGHT?
Technically, but in reality you have to understand these lands are
Lebanese. And we are not saying they are Lebanese because we want to
extend our war with Israel, but in reality these lands are owned by
Lebanese people, registered in Lebanon, not in Syria. So we have the
legal right over these lands. The problem is that, because Lebanon is
small, in the past it didn't raise its voice to say 'Israel is
occupying these lands'. In the past, even if we had talked, nobody
would have listened.
IF LEBANON IS STILL BEING OCCUPIED BY ISRAEL, IF SHEBAA ARE FINALLY RECOGNISED AS LEBANESE, WOULD YOU FIND IT LEGITIMATE, IN THAT CASE, THAT HEZBOLLAH CONTINUES TO HAVE WEAPONS?
In the UN charter any land that is occupied has the right to resist.
What we are doing is perfectly legal, it is perfectly legal.
WHY WERE YOU CHOSEN TO SUCCEED YOUR FATHER, INSTEAD OF BAHAA, THE ELDEST SON?
Why? We agreed, together, the family, that they would give me this
nice job, that I sit here at the risk that people will kill me.
WHY YOU?
Because the family sat together and decided who was going to do what.
DO YOU THINK YOU WERE THE MOST PREPARED?
None of us were prepared.
AND WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT HEREDITARY POLITICS? WHY DID YOU ACCEPT? YOU MAY EVEN END UP AS PRIME MINISTER.
I don't want to be prime minister.
YOU DON'T? TRULY?
Truly. Because I have a better title.
WHICH IS...?
Saad Rafiq Hariri.
AND WHAT CAN SAAD RAFIQ HARIRI DO FOR LEBANON?
What I am trying to do now. I am trying to give hope to the young guys
in Lebanon, that Lebanon is worth living for, that we could be united,
we could work out our problems with ourselves and give, you know, this
national feeling for Lebanon.
DO YOU THINK YOU ARE IN TOUCH WITH SOCIAL REALITY IN LEBANON? LET'S FORGET THE REGIONAL PROBLEMS FOR A MOMENT AND THE RELIGIOUS ISSUES. WHAT ABOUT THE PRICE OF FOOD, GASOLINE, SALARIES, SOCIAL SECURITY. CAN YOU REALLY GET OUT OF THIS IVORY TOWER AND SYMPATHISE WITH THE PEOPLE AND THEIR DAILY PROBLEMS?
I feel with what is happening and I wish I could do more. Believe me,
it is not an ivory tower, I am living in a prison. I don't go out, I
don't see anyone, I cannot do anything, I just sit here and meet
people day and night, and I try to meet as many people as I can.
ARE YOU LIVING ABROAD?
Abroad?
YES, YOU WERE LIVING IN FRANCE FOR A WHILE.
No, that was a while ago.
ARE YOU STAYING HERE FOR THE MOMENT?
I am staying here for a while.
HOW DO YOU FEEL KNOWING THAT YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER?
Great. It’s exciting.
YOU MEAN IT?
Oh yeah.
ADRENALINE BOOSTING?
Yes, like jumping with a bungee jump – you don't know if the cord is
going to be cut off or not. [[he laughs]]
ARE YOU NEGLECTING YOUR COMPANIES? YOU ARE SAID TO BE A GREAT BUSINESSMAN.
That's what they say.
I WONDER HOW MUCH BETTER YOU ARE A BUSINESSMAN THAN YOU CAN EVER BE A POLITICIAN.
Definitely a better businessman.
DID YOU STOP LOOKING INTO YOUR COMPANIES?
I have my brothers, who are taking care of the business, and we talk a
lot. I am handing over what I was doing.
SO BASICALLY YOU ARE NOT TAKING ANY RESPONSIBILITY AS FAR AS YOUR BUSINESSES GO?
No, I am handing them over.
SO YOU ARE FULL TIME WITH POLITICS NOW?
Not now, but I will be.
NOT AS A PRIME MINISTER, THOUGH.
No.
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT EXPATRIATES BEING ENTITLED TO VOTE?
I think that anything that can make people feel proud of being
Lebanese and connect them to Lebanon, should happen. I am with it.
BUT WOULDN'T THAT TILT THE CONFESSIONAL BALANCE?
It doesn't tilt the balance. This is all nonsense. For me there is no
Christian and Muslim, I don't believe it. And people who think like
this are sick.
WHAT ABOUT YOUR BUSINESSES IN BRAZIL?
I don't have a business in Brazil. My only business in Brazil is to
get the Lebanese people in Brazil to feel that they are connected with
Lebanon and I feel that the Lebanese who live in Brazil are very
very lucky people, because actually the Brazilians took them as they
are, and considered them as Brazilians, but I believe that we should
do much more for them as a government and try to connect them with
their country, because at the end of the day, Lebanon is their home,
like Brazil is, and Lebanon is a great country to be in. And one day
when they come here, they will see what Lebanon went through and how
the Lebanese people were able to take the burden from [meaning
to go from] the civil war to a place where all the Arab world and all
the world are coming to.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT LEBANON WILL EVER SIGN A PEACE DEAL WITH ISRAEL, LIKE JORDAN AND EGYPT?
You should ask uh… we believe that the Arab summit that happened in
Beirut had a very good proposal for Israel.
OFFERING THEM THE CHANCE TO SIGN A PEACE TREATY WITH THE ARAB COUNTRIES IF THEY RETURN TO THE 67 BORDERS AND…
And we will be the last one to sign with Israel. We are a small
country and we believe that Arabs should take this initiative, and
they have, and then have Israel sign, do something with the Arabs. We
cannot do it by ourselves.
OK, LET ME SEE IF I GET IT RIGHT: IF ISRAEL GOES BACK TO THE 67 BORDERS AND STOPS OCCUPYING ARAB LAND, WOULD YOU SIGN A PEACE TREATY WITH ISRAEL, YOU WOULD BE WILLING TO...
If the Arabs sign, we sign. But we don't sign if they don't sign.
SO IT HAS TO BE A COLLECTIVE DECISION?
Yes.
THE MOHAMMED CARTOONS. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE ISSUE? WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THE ISSUE OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH?
Hum, tough question. I mean, to be so insensitive about Islam and draw
cartoons about Mohammed, who is the prophet that we in Islam look up
to and think of as our prophet. I think that there is a lot of
insensitivity in the way these cartoons were done. I believe that you
cannot touch people's pride and belief the way they did. It is not
about freedom of speech, it has to do with provocation of a
civilization. And the problem is that if you provoke a religion…
Religion is one of the most extremely sensitive issues with people, and
if you are not sensitive to that, it will raise all the problems we
have seen.
DO YOU THINK THIS SENSITIVITY TOWARDS PEOPLE'S FEELINGS SHOULD BE IMPOSED BY LAW OR SHOULD BE A MATTER OF PERSONAL CHOICE?
I believe that like there are laws for anti-Semitism and all that,
there should be laws to respect religion.
WHAT DO YOU THINK MAKES A STATESMAN?
A statesman?
YES. SOME PEOPLE SAY YOUR FATHER WAS A STATESMAN, I COULD HAVE OBJECTIONS TO THAT, AS I HAVE MY OWN IDEA OF WHAT A STATESMAN IS. WHAT IS YOUR IDEA OF A STATESMAN?
Why do you have objections to that?
I SAID 'I COULD'. YOU ARE THE ONE BEING INTERVIEWED HERE. ONE DAY, MAYBE, I WILL LET YOU KNOW.
Tell me now.
OH I HAVE MANY OBJECTIONS.
[[tape recorder is shut off. I tell him my objections.]]
I think a statesman is somebody people trust, people like. A statesman
takes position that benefits the country, and not for the sake of
politics.
THE 35 BILLION DOLLAR DEBT. HOW DO YOU ANSWER THE ACCUSATION THAT YOUR FATHER WAS THE MAIN PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR DEBT WORTH AROUND 180% OF THE GDP?
When you are coming out of a war and you see the devastation that
Lebanon was living in, and you want to attract people to come to
Lebanon, to bring back Lebanon to where it was, and to turn Lebanon
into the main base for the world to come to, especially after the
country was marked as a haven for terrorists and kidnappers and all of
that… What has been done since 1992 until today, if you look at the
reconstruction and the development of Lebanon, it is being quite
tremendous. At the same time you cannot ignore the fact that you came
out of a war. And coming out of a civil war means that at the
beginning you have an agreement to stop the war and start building the
government. And this is the transition you see. Part of the debt has
been to rebuild Lebanon. About 50% or 60% was to establish the
security forces. And part is to service the debt, and that is the
problem. If you didn't do anything in Lebanon when my father came, the
debt today would be about 25 billion dollars.
WHOSE CALCULATION IS THAT?
Because if you had left the airport the way it was, the roads the way
they were, the infrastructure, the telephone, the electricity, the
water and everything that was done, Lebanon would have had a debt of 2
billion or 3 billion dollars. If you calculate, every five years it
would double. Plus the interest rate, plus you don't have a GDP growth
in the country, you would have a debt of 25 billion dollars.
IS THAT CALCULATION SIGNED BY AN ECONOMIST?
You can ask any economist and they would tell you that if nothing had
been done then that would be the debt today. So you build a country
and now you need to fix it politically. And fixing it politically,
having political stability is what is going to take that debt out.
What we did in Paris 2, my father did in Paris 2 [the donor's
conference that lent money to Lebanon], was to take the debt and bring
it down to where it should be. Unfortunately, we have president Lahoud
who puts every stick in the wheel of the economy. Now we are going to
Beirut 1 to re-establish, to reinvent the economy.
BEIRUT 1 IS THE NAME OF A NEW LOAN?
Beirut 1 is the donor's conference that is going to help Lebanon, like Paris 2.
AND YOU WILL BE HEADING IT?
No, the prime minister will.
AND YOU REALLY DON'T WANT TO BE A PRIME MINISTER?
Definitely. Why should I be?
ARE YOU TIRED ALREADY?
No, I am not tired, I don't think I am ready yet and there are better
people than me to do that.
DO YOU FEEL LIKE, SORT OF, YOU FELL WITH A PARACHUTE IN THIS SITUATION?
I didn't fall with a parachute, I crash-landed.
SO IF YOUR FATHER HAD NOT BEING KILLED, YOU WOULD NOT EVEN DREAM OF ENTERING POLITICS?
Definitely not. I wouldn't be here.
No comments:
Post a Comment